『日本人ルーツの謎を解く』（長浜浩明著）⑥－陸稲から水稲はありえない!? ― 2010/07/07 15:30
長浜氏の考えには大筋で賛成なのですが、全てにおいて完璧ということは、無いようです。
縄文時代から続くコメ作りについて、最後に次のようにまとめています。
「即ち、日本では６０００年前には陸稲が栽培されており、３０００年前には水田稲作が行われていたが、両種は平行栽培されてきた。仮に弥生時代に渡来人が現れ、この時から温帯ジャポニカを用いた水田稲作が始まったのなら、こうはならない。」
これは、菜畑遺跡を始めとした遺跡から、縄文以来のコメ＝熱帯ジャポニカが出土していることによるもので、水田稲作と共に、温帯ジャポニカが持ち込まれた訳ではない、ということでしょう。
更に、最後に水田稲作への移行について、次のように述べています。
「縄文時代の人たちが何千年も栽培してきた陸稲に、水田稲作の要素を少しずつ加えていったからこそ、弥生時代以降の遺跡から出土する米に熱帯ジャポニカが発見されてきたのだ。」
イネが栽培される過程として、まずは畑で栽培する陸稲があり、それが発展して、水田による水稲に変わっていた、それを行ったのが縄文人である、ということでしょう。
イネの栽培手法を発展させたのが、縄文人かどうかは別として、陸稲から水稲への発展というに無理があるようです。
実は、稲作についてどうしても気になっていたので、『稲作の起源ーイネ学から考古学への挑戦』（池橋 宏：講談社選書メチエ）を、読み始めていたのです。
池橋氏によると、陸稲と水稲の性質を比較したとき、遺伝的な要因により、陸稲から水稲への変化に疑問を呈しています。
縄文時代から続くコメ作りについて、最後に次のようにまとめています。
「即ち、日本では６０００年前には陸稲が栽培されており、３０００年前には水田稲作が行われていたが、両種は平行栽培されてきた。仮に弥生時代に渡来人が現れ、この時から温帯ジャポニカを用いた水田稲作が始まったのなら、こうはならない。」
これは、菜畑遺跡を始めとした遺跡から、縄文以来のコメ＝熱帯ジャポニカが出土していることによるもので、水田稲作と共に、温帯ジャポニカが持ち込まれた訳ではない、ということでしょう。
更に、最後に水田稲作への移行について、次のように述べています。
「縄文時代の人たちが何千年も栽培してきた陸稲に、水田稲作の要素を少しずつ加えていったからこそ、弥生時代以降の遺跡から出土する米に熱帯ジャポニカが発見されてきたのだ。」
イネが栽培される過程として、まずは畑で栽培する陸稲があり、それが発展して、水田による水稲に変わっていた、それを行ったのが縄文人である、ということでしょう。
イネの栽培手法を発展させたのが、縄文人かどうかは別として、陸稲から水稲への発展というに無理があるようです。
実は、稲作についてどうしても気になっていたので、『稲作の起源ーイネ学から考古学への挑戦』（池橋 宏：講談社選書メチエ）を、読み始めていたのです。
池橋氏によると、陸稲と水稲の性質を比較したとき、遺伝的な要因により、陸稲から水稲への変化に疑問を呈しています。
野生イネの性質は、水稲に近く、野生イネが陸稲へ性質が変化することはあっても、逆の変化は考えられない、ということです。
どうやら長浜氏は、渡来人による稲作の伝来を否定しようとするあまり、縄文稲作（陸稲）と、水田稲作を少々強引に結び付けてしまったようです。
いえ、どちらかといえば、渡来人そのものを否定しようとするあまり、このような考えになってしまったのでしょう。
私個人の考えとしては、渡来人が水田稲作を持ち込んだと考えても良いと思うのです。
それが、直ぐに日本人のルーツに影響するとは限らないのですから。
例え、渡来人が一人だけであっても、水田稲作を熟知しており、日本列島のどこか（たぶん北部九州）で始めることができれば、後は時間の問題です。
イネそのものは、そのときに持ち込む必要は無いでしょう。
それよりも、水田稲作に必要な農耕具が重要かもしれません。
また、渡来人でなくても、朝鮮半島へ渡り水田稲作を覚えて帰ってきた縄文人でも良い訳です。
それと、日本人のルーツとは別問題とした方が良いのではないでしょうか。
どうやら長浜氏は、渡来人による稲作の伝来を否定しようとするあまり、縄文稲作（陸稲）と、水田稲作を少々強引に結び付けてしまったようです。
いえ、どちらかといえば、渡来人そのものを否定しようとするあまり、このような考えになってしまったのでしょう。
私個人の考えとしては、渡来人が水田稲作を持ち込んだと考えても良いと思うのです。
それが、直ぐに日本人のルーツに影響するとは限らないのですから。
例え、渡来人が一人だけであっても、水田稲作を熟知しており、日本列島のどこか（たぶん北部九州）で始めることができれば、後は時間の問題です。
イネそのものは、そのときに持ち込む必要は無いでしょう。
それよりも、水田稲作に必要な農耕具が重要かもしれません。
また、渡来人でなくても、朝鮮半島へ渡り水田稲作を覚えて帰ってきた縄文人でも良い訳です。
それと、日本人のルーツとは別問題とした方が良いのではないでしょうか。
コメント
_ A.Shio ― 2010/07/17 17:59
_ カムシン ― 2011/02/11 09:46
野生の稲が水稲に近いとは、その根拠にまた疑問がありますね。縄文の頃の野生の稲が、どうして現代でわかるのでしょうか？
_ jimdon ― 2011/02/11 14:35
カムシンさん、コメントありがとうございます。
私の理解と記憶が不十分なので、”とりあえずの答え”とさせていただきます。
「遺伝的な変化」という観点から、陸稲から水稲への変化は有り得ない、逆に、野生イネから水稲への変化はあり得る、という意味から「野生イネが水稲に近い」ということになるようです。
また、縄文の頃の野生イネを、直接調べている訳では無かったと思います。（すいません、曖昧な記憶です・・・。）
日本列島には、イネの野生種は存在しないですし、大陸（中国）に現生する野生種が調査、研究の対象となっているはずです。
いずれにしても、今一度調べ直したいと思いますので、少々お時間を下さい。
私の理解と記憶が不十分なので、”とりあえずの答え”とさせていただきます。
「遺伝的な変化」という観点から、陸稲から水稲への変化は有り得ない、逆に、野生イネから水稲への変化はあり得る、という意味から「野生イネが水稲に近い」ということになるようです。
また、縄文の頃の野生イネを、直接調べている訳では無かったと思います。（すいません、曖昧な記憶です・・・。）
日本列島には、イネの野生種は存在しないですし、大陸（中国）に現生する野生種が調査、研究の対象となっているはずです。
いずれにしても、今一度調べ直したいと思いますので、少々お時間を下さい。
_ お絵かき爺 ― 2011/06/24 18:44
私は、自分が出来ることをやってみた限りでは、佐藤洋一郎説よりも池橋説が良いと考えます。縄文稲作論はあまり意味がないのじゃないか。丑野毅開発のレプリカ法により、土器の籾痕もその多くが否定されつつあります。池橋の著書で疑問が呈されたとおりでした。
_ jimdon ― 2011/06/25 15:59
お絵かき爺さん、コメントありがとうございます。
「日本人ルーツの謎を解く」をお読みになったのですね。
縄文稲作論については、正直なところ、何が正しくて何が間違っているのか、よく解りません。
しかし、細かい事を抜きにして広い視点で見るならば、縄文稲作と言えるものは無かったのではないかと思っています。
仮にプラントオパール等、稲の痕跡といえる物が事実だとしても、それを農耕といえるかどうかは疑問があります。
しかも、それが畑作による陸稲だとするならば、たとえそれが農耕であったとしても、水田稲作のルーツは別だと考えます。
この辺りを混同することにより辻褄の合わない説が横行してるのではないでしょうか。
池橋氏については『稲作の起源』では、自論を中心に納得させられる点が多かったように思うのですが、『稲作渡来民』では、採用する先人の知恵を間違えたのか、あらぬ方向へ脱線してしまった印象があり、少々残念です。
「日本人ルーツの謎を解く」をお読みになったのですね。
縄文稲作論については、正直なところ、何が正しくて何が間違っているのか、よく解りません。
しかし、細かい事を抜きにして広い視点で見るならば、縄文稲作と言えるものは無かったのではないかと思っています。
仮にプラントオパール等、稲の痕跡といえる物が事実だとしても、それを農耕といえるかどうかは疑問があります。
しかも、それが畑作による陸稲だとするならば、たとえそれが農耕であったとしても、水田稲作のルーツは別だと考えます。
この辺りを混同することにより辻褄の合わない説が横行してるのではないでしょうか。
池橋氏については『稲作の起源』では、自論を中心に納得させられる点が多かったように思うのですが、『稲作渡来民』では、採用する先人の知恵を間違えたのか、あらぬ方向へ脱線してしまった印象があり、少々残念です。
_ wowow56 ― 2013/06/24 08:43
BC923年に稲作が到来
おはようございます。
さて、古田武彦氏は、『盗まれた神話』424頁(ミネルヴ書房、2010年3月10日発行)で、『荒吐神(あらはばきしん)要源抄』という本に、最初は「支那玄武」から稲作が到来し、後に南蛮民(揚子江河口付近の民)が、同じく稲作をもたらしたと記述していると、紹介されています。
次はあくまでも私の推測です。
BC923年の稲作は、水田稲作で稲の種類は熱帯ジァポニカ、南蛮民がもたらした稲は、同じく水田稲作で温帯ジャポニカだと思います。
おはようございます。
さて、古田武彦氏は、『盗まれた神話』424頁(ミネルヴ書房、2010年3月10日発行)で、『荒吐神(あらはばきしん)要源抄』という本に、最初は「支那玄武」から稲作が到来し、後に南蛮民(揚子江河口付近の民)が、同じく稲作をもたらしたと記述していると、紹介されています。
次はあくまでも私の推測です。
BC923年の稲作は、水田稲作で稲の種類は熱帯ジァポニカ、南蛮民がもたらした稲は、同じく水田稲作で温帯ジャポニカだと思います。
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_ http://j.mp ― 2017/02/06 09:30
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野生イネの性質は、水稲に近く、野生イネが陸稲へ性質が変化することはあっても、、、”
長浜浩明「日本人のルーツの謎を解く」を読了。
無理やり捻じ曲げても到底こんな論旨には、なりません。あきれた非科学的曲解です。熱帯ジャポニカが温帯ジャポニカに化けてしまった話と理解されたのですね。お化けじゃありませんからそれは無理です。ご安心下さい。再読されたし。